Until recently, I considered Firefox to be the best browser on Windows by a longshot, but not a worthy replacement for Safari on my Mac. Like most Mac users, I’m a sucker for a great user experience, and I believe that Safari offers me that.
Firefox, on the other hand, sports a great rendering engine (on par with Safari’s, if not slighty better), but lacks the “Mac-ness” in the interface that makes Safari so nice. Firefox’s cross-platform nature is definitely one of its strong points, but because of it, it’s not built with the standard Mac toolbox. As such, it lacks many of the goodies us Mac users have come to know and love in our native apps.
That having been said, the extensible nature of Firefox is forcing me to think twice. The number of extensions and themes available for Firefox is growing at a pretty fast clip, and I’m starting to miss some of them when I find myself in Safari. In patricular, the Bloglines notifier extension and the web developer toolbar are becoming absolutle must-haves for me. Additionaly, the proliferation of Firefox themes that give it a decidedly Mac-like appearance is making the interface downfalls feel less objectionable.
Still, I find myself coming back to Safari. I think what I’m deciding through this is that Safari needs a plug-in system. There’s value in Apple keeping the browser as stupid simple as possible out-of-the-box, but there’s also value in it being scalable for power users.
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001 // Brian Ford // 11.10.2004 // 10:49 AM
First thing… I 100% agree that I wouldn’t use anything other than firefox on a windows-based machine. I actually got my parents to switch too (amazing as that is).
I haven’t upgraded to 1.0 on my Mac yet, but I suspect I’d still use Safari. Firefox has a really long load time that gets to me (petty, I know) and I’m just not really into dealing with themes. (They always seemed to mess up my browser layout in previous versions of firefox.)
As for extensions, I just don’t want to become an addict. I like that Safari does what it needs to do very well.
What I need in a browser:
Safari has all of this and I even like the interface, so I see no need to get another browser only to “theme” it into a Safari-like look-and-feel.
I guess the next version is also going to have a RSS reader built-in, and we’ll see how much I use that. I haven’t really been using any RSS readers up until now, and I’m pretty much waiting to try it out whenever i get Tiger.
I guess for me, a browser should do just that… browse, and most of the extra features I want should be obvious ways of making that basic function…. faster and easier.
002 // Jeff Croft // 11.10.2004 // 11 AM
I generally agree that browsers should do those baisc things out of the box (and not much more), but I don’t see a problem with a plug-in architechture that allows power users to extend it.
As for Safari’s RSS reader: If the screenshot’s I’ve seen represent the final version, then Safari RSS is a different beast than the current crop of RSS aggregators (NetNewsWire, NewsFire, Bloglines.com, FeedDemon, etc.) — and it doesn’t seem as useful. It doesn’t seem to have functionalty that allows you to, at-a-glance, look over all your frequently visited sites and see which ones have been updated in the last xx number of minutes. It does seem to do some things that other news readers don’t do, so it may well be very cool in it’s own right — I just think it’s a different sort of tool.
Brian, I’d highly recommend you go download NetNewsWire or NewsFire and give them a look. They make reading your favorite websites just like reading your e-mail — you get notified when there are new articles, and you can either view the text of them in the reader, or you can pop to a browser to view the whole, “designed” shebang. I don’t think Safari RSS is going to give you this — but I could be wrong.
003 // Brian Ford // 11.10.2004 // 11:11 AM
We’ll see… What I envision an RSS reader doing for me is letting me know in advance articles that I’m likely to want to read, and then linking me to the site itself.
My morning includes spending my first hour of work catching up on all my daily reads, and I -would- really like a simpler way of doing that, because I often forget to visit a couple sites.
So, I want to something that lists the sites I visit, and new headlines from that site. That way I can avoid going to a site if it’s not really necessary.
However, I DO like visiting a site more than I think I’d like reading content in a stand-alone window.
So basically, I’m guessing that Safari’s browser will work like a set of bookmarks (at least for me) that include an updated set of headlines so that I can avoid loading a page throughout the day if it hasn’t been updated, or if it HAS been but with something I’m not interested in.
Also, there’s no chance of me getting net news-wire here at work, but I’ll probably give it a shot at home.
004 // Jeff Croft // 11.10.2004 // 11:16 AM
It sounds to me like NetNewsWire or NewsFire is exactly what you need. My impression of Safari RSS is that it acts more like a news clipping service — which might be useful in it’s own right, but it’s not exactly what you’re talking about (and what the more typical news readers do).
Also, if you’re wanting to be able to do this both at home and at work, but you can’t install software on your Macs at work, check out Bloglines.com. Since it’s web-based, you won’t get the beautiful interface of a NetNewsWire, but you will be able to use it at work. Also, the 2.0 version of NetNewsWire is slated to support Bloglines.com’s API, meaning that your Bloglines will always be synced with your NetNewsWire. So, you could use Bloglines at work at NetNewsWire at home. This is what I plan to do. The current NetNewsWire 2.0 beta doesn’t have the Bloglines functionality yet, but it’s supposed to be added within the next month or so.
005 // Roger Johansson // 11.10.2004 // 11:51 AM
I’ve been using Safari and Firefox side by side for a long time now. Safari is my main browser for the Mac-ness you mention. Better text rendering, better form controls (though it sucks that you can’t click on labels to activate a form control - I do that all the time in Firefox) and generally a much more polished feel.
Firefox on the other hand has web developer tools I really really need. Those are completely missing from Safari.
So it’s a close call, and I’ll keep using both browsers until either one of them is all I need.
006 // Jeff Smith // 11.10.2004 // 11:51 AM
I’m definitely pro-Firefox, but for my daily surfing, I don’t think anything is going to get me away from Safari. And as you said Jeff, it’s definitely because of the Mac user experience. I just enjoy Safari much more. But, when it comes to testing websites, nothing beats Firefox’s developer’s tools. I’ll definitely always have a copy of both on my machine. When it comes to my Windows PC though, there’ll be nothing but Firefox used on that.
With regards to RSS feeds, I don’t think that I’ll ever get switched over to browsing feeds from a web browser. The reason I like using an aggregator is so that all of my news, blog posts, etc. are in one place so that I don’t have to visit a million links in order to get my daily fill of geek stuff. NetNewsWire will definitely remain by my side until a more viable solution shows up on the market, and it’s going to have to be one great piece of software to fill NNW’s boots.
007 // Dustin // 11.10.2004 // 11:54 AM
On Windows machine’s, I push Fire Fox. Not actually because I think it will be better for the user (but it will be), but it makes our lives as developers better. We push firefox because we push web standards.
As far as mac folks go, how great it is that they actually have a choice. FF may have a bit better render engine, but I think Mac and Safari will be much faster on the update for their stuff compared to microsoft.
I too just love the way mac looks. Not only do I have the mac (panther) theme on my FF, but on my windows platform too (see http://www.themexp.org/ ).
But once again, I think it comes down to more than just how the browser “feels”
Heck, IE still looks better than mozilla…maybe that’s one reason why they released FF.
As of now, I have no reason to go out and buy a Mac since there is no proprietory software that I don’t already have on my windows machine. Plus, to relearn all the short-cuts ect…baa. However I still live in the mac-wannabe world ;)
For the future, let’s just hope safari doesn’t get full of cooporate zeal and starts to die down and lack updates. one reason I think FF will always win is because it’s open source and it gets updated very often.
008 // Jeff Croft // 11.10.2004 // 11:58 AM
I should have mentioned that there is a project underway to Auqa-fy Firefox, which should put it squarely in the Mac court interface-wise. It was supposed to make it into the 1.0 release, but has slipped to the 1.1 version. That could change everything, for me…
And Mike — I agree, I use Firefox exclusivley when I’m developing. The developer tools available are second to none.
009 // Dustin // 11.10.2004 // 12:03 PM
I love Firefox for two main reasons: 1. Tabbed Browsing 2. Extentions
Tabbed browsing has become the number one reason why I’m using Firefox versus Internet Explorer, Opera, Netscape, etc. I’m not saying that other programs don’t have tabs, but Firefox is just what I like to use. I’ve looked at the others, and I like Firefox better. There’s no better feeling than to get to work, click on the grouped bookmark “startup” and have all my daily clicks, as well as work related sites open up in tabs. Not to mention, it keeps my WIndows taskbar clear of excess windows.
Extentions; what a marvelous thing. I’ve got mouse gestures, web developer toolbar, google bar, copy plain text, and a host of other items I find a use for every day. I like the idea that I can take a shell, and customize it to my needs. I’m not big on themes, but I’ve found one that I like and use.
I can see Jeff’s point even though I’m not a Mac user. When using Internet Explorer, it worked out of the box, just like a generic browser should - and it was itegrated into my entire system! Perhaps Safari offers Mac users a little more attachment to native programs due to the design. I’ve seen it, and it looks cool. Macs are cool. For me, it’s all about the features, and Firefox gives them to me.
For Mail, of course I use Thunderbird. It has built in RSS. While it took a long time to setup, I’m finally happy with the results.
010 // Dustin // 11.10.2004 // 12:06 PM
Boy, I screwed something up in my post. Sorry Jeff.
Since it appears that two Dustin’s are posting with the same name, I’ll try something different next time, like Dustin F. oooohhhhh!
011 // Jeff Croft // 11.10.2004 // 12:53 PM
On the topic of tabs: I actually don’t like Firefox’s implmentation as well as Safari and some others. Firefox has one “close tab” button way off the right that closes the active tab, which means you can’t close a tab that is not the active one. Safari (and some others), have a close button on each tab, so that you can close them even when they are not active. Tabbed browsing is a killer feature that I couldn’t live without, but I don’t really think it’s a reason to pick a browser anymore, because almost every browser (even IE, with an add-on) has them now.
Since Dustin brought it up: Thunderbird is the same deal for me. I love Thunderbird on Windows and think it’s the best e-mail client on the platform. It works equally as well on Mac, but it just feels less “Mac-like” than Apple Mail.
One of the main reasons I bring all of this up is that I use a PC at work, and I (obviously) use Firefox and Thunderbird. It would be nice if I came home to my Mac and had the exact same tools. And I can. But, those tools feel inferior to Safari and Apple Mail, so I don’t use them.
So which is more important: using the best tool available on the machine I’m currently sitting at, or using the same tool on all my machines? I’m not sure…
012 // Jon Hicks // 11.10.2004 // 3:58 PM
“I think what I’m deciding through this is that Safari needs a plug-in system.”
Jeff I know what you mean, and I’ve had an idea recently. There are quite a few extensions and plug-ins to Safari already. What we need is a site to bring all these together, like Firefox has, so that everyone knows about them. There could always be more of course!
I also hope that changes to Javascript in Safari 1.3 onwards, will help the development of a Safari Web Devloper Extensions.
As for the lack of ‘mac-ness’, I feel that pain too. Even after the supposed ‘aquafication’, I think it will still feel out of place. Such a hard decision…
013 // Dustin Diaz // 11.10.2004 // 5:52 PM
Eh there. I’ll use my full name for now on when I post comments on this site. You’ll notice my post (the first post listed as Dustin) is taking on the other Dustin’s email address…. bit of a bug eh ;) It’s like he’s stealing my comments.
014 // Jeff // 11.10.2004 // 10:40 PM
I don’t have a mac, but my friend does. He refuses to use Firefox because of the lack of aquafication. Hopefully this new stuff will get him using it and he’ll help me promote it. Maybe?
And I sometimes have the same problem with ‘Jeff.’ It seems I’m not the only one with this name; luckily, however, it seems Jeff Croft always seems to use his full name. I’ve been trying to start doing that.
015 // Brent O'Connor // 11.11.2004 // 8:38 AM
All I have to say Jeff is that I agree. I think the Fire Fox interface is definitely not as cool as Safari and I would even say on the PC I don’t even like the Fire Fox interface as much as Internet Explorer. I think that’s just the drawback of having an application that works on almost every major platform.
016 // Dustin Diaz // 11.11.2004 // 10:33 AM
Yea but, only firefox will let you change its theme to look like This
017 // Brian Ford // 11.11.2004 // 11:38 AM
That theme is indeed very close to Safari.
However, using Firefox and modding it to look just like Safari seems a little like being a vegetarian and eating something designed to look and taste like a hamburger despite being made out of non-meat products, or banging your knee and saying “Oh Dagnabit Johnson Cripes that hurt” instead of “Oh DAMMIT JESUS CHRIST that Hurt!” despite meaning the same thing.
To each their own, i guess ;)
018 // Jeff Croft // 11.11.2004 // 12:08 PM
And, just as “Oh Dagnagbit Johnson Cripes that hurt” isn’t nearly as effective as the original, that theme is pretty poor, when compared to Safari itself.
Themes don’t really do that much for me. If there’s a really well made one, I might give it a shot, but more often than not they’re worse than the original. Extensions are exciting, but themes are mostly just hyperbole.
019 // Dustin Diaz // 11.11.2004 // 2:55 PM
There is another FF theme that allows to actually get a much more fuller experience Safari For Firefox which even renders the text and gives you those soft anti-aliases that Mac users love. This one really goes all out, however, a bit more effort to get it installed rather than your typical drag and drop into the theme manager.
Anyway, my point being, what if folks actually like the way Firefox looks opposed to Safari? I mean really, you can only objectively say that Safari “looks” and “browses” better than FF. That’s soley based on opinion. Can Safari users make their browser look like Firefox?
Btw, I’m lovin’ your blog posts. Brings up great discussions.
020 // Jeff Croft // 11.11.2004 // 3:19 PM
Wow, that last theme you posted is pretty complete, isn’t it? That really looks a LOT like Safari. Pretty cool.
The real reasons, though, that I like Safari better than Firefox aren’t really just about “looks”. It’s about being fully developed using native Mac OS X tools and APIs, which allows it to take advantage of things that are built into the OS that Firefox doesn’t notice. I don’t really object to the “looks” of Firefox. Some of them affect the looks, but it’s really more about an overall feeling that Safari “belongs” on my Mac, whereas Firefox feels like a Windows app that’s been ported to my Mac. Here are some examples:
Integration with Services menu. Mac OS X has a “services” menu that allows apps to sort of distribute their functionality into other apps. One thing I use this for in Safari is to have in-line spell checking in my browser’s form entry fields (such as this one). You can always tell when I’m blogging from Firefox b/c there are tons of spelling errors. :)
Lack of transparent menus. Yes, it seems like it’s about “looks,” and maybe it is, but all native Mac OS X apps have transparent menus. When I’m in Firefox and the menus aren’t transparent, something feels ‘wrong”. It feels like I’ve been transported back to Mac OS 9, or something.
Form widgets. The form widgets on Firefox are all very Windows-esque. Yes, I know you change them with themes, but it’s never quite the same as the real deal.
Tab close buttons. Firefox only offers one tab close button for the whole window. Safari offers one on each tab, which lets me close tabs even if they’re not active. This is about being “Mac-like,” really, but it’s another reason I think the user experience on Safari is better.
We’re talking details here, and maybe I’m too picky. But, if I’ve got two browser that are basically equal when it comes to the rendering engine, but one just “feels right” on my system, I’m going to pick that one every time.
And to answer your question: no, Safari users can’t make their browser look like Firefox (or anything else). This is no big deal to me, because I’m not really into the whole theming, skinning thing. If you’re all about that sort of thing, then obviously Firefox is the browswer for you.
Thanks for the kind words about the blog posts. Keep coming by — you’re part of the reason the discussions are good! :)
021 // Dustin Diaz // 11.11.2004 // 5 PM
Cool. Great Deal. On this »
Tab close buttons. Firefox only offers one tab close button for the whole window. Safari offers one on each tab, which lets me close tabs even if they’re not active. This is about being ‘Mac-like,’ really, but it’s another reason I think the user experience on Safari is better.
That theme I had posted, as tough as it was to install, really is actually pretty cool. Although I don’t entirely know the functionality of Safari (you’re kinda makin’ me jealous here), The theme also delves into rendering some of the extensions.
It comes with a whole Tab configuration…
pauses to take a screenshot
okay I’m back, See this screenshot » FF using Safari Theme. Notice there is an extra menu on the top menu. Plus, I right clicked one of the tabs and it has a whole mess of options that I’m assuming are in Safari. I can only tell you that they were not FF defaults…So I’m guessing they’re part of the safari functionality. Notice also you can change the tab colors. Plus when I close my browser, and re-open it, all the same pages are still there ( I think you can do that in opera ).
Anyway…yea. take a look at the screenshot, I hope it was detailed as far as the tabbed stuff goes…
Sorry if most of my sentences seem like fragments. I kind of hopped around a bit.
022 // Dries Van Dyck // 10.07.2005 // 9 AM
I’m new to Mac and switched to safari because of problems with firefox: I can’t access the properties of the bookmarks on the bookmarks-bar.
Generally, very cool broswer even having a feature firefox lacks: private browsing.
But I still miss one vital feature: find as you type. (press / in firefox and start typing). I used this so much in firefox, I don’t think I can handle without it…
023 // Jeff Croft // 10.07.2005 // 9:40 AM
Dries-
Try pimpmysafari.com. I’m almost positive there are extensions for Safari that enable find-as-you-type. :)